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Author Topic: Exorcism: Fact or Fiction  (Read 8236 times)
amwell
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« on: April 19, 2010, 08:03:57 PM »

This is probably one of the most controversial topics that come in the supernatural world of ghosts.  What are some of the thoughts and opinions on it.  Do you think it is real?  One of the first questions that we should probably address first is: Is demonic possession possible in the first place?  Or are these just psychological disorder? Or is it a ploy to get attention?  The cause of demonic possession would depend on someone?s religion and perspective of the world.  Pertaining to whether or not there is a devil or afterlife.  Is it all a hoax established by the Catholic Church?  Are these exorcisms still officially practiced today?

Please add your thoughts, facts and links to this discussion!
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JimS
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2010, 09:55:46 AM »


Great questions, Angela. I'm going to rephrase the primary question, you know how I dislike attaching religious labels to unexplained phenomena. "Is spirit attachment possible?"

I believe so. There is enough evidence to strongly suggest that it is a real phenomena. There are stories from virtually every religion, as well as from non-religious occurrences. Certainly, a person's religious outlook will influence the character of the event, but these things do not seem to be limited to any one set of religious beliefs.

However, the answers to your other questions are also probably "yes". There are elements of all of the above that occur. There can be psychological disorders that mimic spirit attachment, it could be a ploy for attention on an individual's part, and I am sure that there have been cases of possession being hoaxed. I do believe that the Catholic Church has practicing Exorcists on staff, but they keep the whole thing pretty low on the radar.

One thing that I noticed from reading some of the Google hits is that spirit attachment can happen in varying degrees. It can be anything from a mild influence that gives a person a grumpy outlook on life to the full-blown Linda Blair ( link: "The Exorcist" movie ) experience of vomiting green stuff and screaming obscenities about your mother.

As I sit here typing this on a Sunday morning, I remember from my teen years the several Sunday mornings in a row when I was awakened by my clock radio playing the theme song from 'The Exorcist" not long after I had seen the movie - with Mom calling down the stairs as usual that it was time for me to get up and get ready for church. Now, that was a bit spooky....

The secular term "spirit attachment" turns up quite a lot of Google hits on the subject, something over 7 million if you have some time to kill. Here are the first few that I found (clickable links):

SoulWork Resources for understanding Entity Attachment, Spirit Attachment, Possession and their Release.

Spirit Attachment and Health

This one briefly mentions particle physics, but unfortunately doesn't go into any detail:
Is Spirit Attachment a True Phenomenon?

SpiritScan - What is Spirit Releasement?

Spiritual Detox
     Possible Indications of Spirit Attachment or Possession

Removing dark spirit attachments

Disclaimer: NPS is not affiliated with any of the above web sites, and assumes no responsibility for the contents or accuracy. We present these links for informational purposes only. NPS does not do deposession or Exorcism work.




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mgscherer
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« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2010, 06:04:21 PM »

Jim I totaly agree with your thoughts on this subject. I am currently doing my own reaseach on this subject before I want to put in my two cents. Thanks Jim I learn so much from you about the paranormal.
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JimS
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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2010, 07:18:08 PM »


Thanks Mark. I won't let that go to my head; I'm hardly an expert.

-Jim
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mgscherer
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« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2010, 05:11:25 PM »

I have a big interest in this sunject; Possesion and Demonology.
I have worked for my church for over fifteen years and I have seen somethings in youth that made me think twice about this subject. I have been in conversations with our leaders of my church about this subject and in my faith they do not believe in possesion and demons. I on the other hand I do.
I've been looking up this subject on several different online sites. The one I like the best comes from http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-demon-possessed.html
I like where it says, "The bible does not explicitly state  whether a Christian can be possed by a demon. However, since a Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, it would seem unlikely that the Holy Spirit would allow a demon to posses the same person he is indwelling."
This is sometimes a controversial issue; however, we strongly hold to the belief that a christian cannot be possessed by a demon and being oppressed or influenced by a demon. Demon possesion involves a demon having direct control over the thoughts and/or actions of a person. Demon oppression or influence involves a demon attacking a person spiritually and /or encouraging him/her into sinfull behavior. Notice in all the New Testiment passages dealing with spiritual warfare, we are never told to to cast a demon out of a believer. Belivers are told to resist the devil, not to cast him out.
It is unthinkable that God would allow one of his children, whom he purchased with the blood of Christ and made into a new creation, to be possessed and controlled by a demon. Yes, as believers, we wage war with satin and his demons, but not from within ourselves. The apostle John declares, "You, dear children, are from God and overcome them, because the one who is in youyou is greater than the one who is in the world."
Who is the one in us? The Holy Spirit. Who is the one in the world? Satan and his demons. Therefor, the beleiver has overcome the world of demons, and the case for demons possession of a believer cannot be made scpriturally.
http://gotquestions.org/Christian-demon-pessessed.html
I hope that this maye answer some questions from the christian point of view. This is just my point of view not set in stone.
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JimS
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« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2010, 10:09:50 PM »

Those are some very interesting thoughts, Mark. I can see why the issue is so controversial. I personally prefer to take a less elitist view of the universe. The saying "God is everywhere, and you are somewhere, so God is in you" is just as powerful - if not more so. It just does not seem very ... "Christian" ... to me that God would allow some of his children to be less protected than others just because of a difference in opinion. Wasn't is Groucho Marx who said, "I wouldn't want to join any club that would accept me as a member?"

I am kicking the beehive a little but here, but I think this goes hand-in-hand with what I have said on other occasions, that these things don't have any power over us unless we give it to them. Perhaps the Christian dogma that you cited produces a mindset among believers that produces the same effect. Although I have no personal knowledge, I am sure there are other religions which provide protection from their deity against evil spirits.h

On a slightly different note, I really doubt that "demons", whatever they are, have changed much since the dawn of time. I do find it very interesting, however, that the mythology surrounding them has changed, grown, and been embellished over the centuries. Why do you suppose this is? Do we know more about them now, or are people just making stuff up for whatever reason?

Could be a little of both, I suppose, but I do wonder if mystics today are that much more skilled than mystics of 5000 years ago.

Food for thought...

-Jim
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 10:11:34 PM by JimS » Logged

Roger
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2010, 01:22:54 PM »

Mark,
Here's my 2 cents worth on this subject.  Over 20 years ago I had befriended a young man who at first glance seemed merely as a troubled youth but all too quickly it became apparent that there was more going on than merely just mental issues.  Strange things would happen around this young man that couldn't be readily explained and from what I had been told, things always seemed to happen around him that frightened people.   Objects sometimes even levitated around him and he was preoccupied with things concerning the devil.  At one point he broke down in front of me and pleaded to me to save him from the devil.  Myself and others could feel something about him that was distinctly different and very unsettling.  I lost contact with this young man for many years, but the last time I seen him (when he was in his early 30's) he once again pleaded with me to save him from the devil which I told him I could not do.  He finally came out and told me he was possessed and he knew it, which didn't shock me really.  I told him at that point to turn his life over to Jesus Christ and beg Him for help as He is the only one that could help him.  Sadly, he just shook his head and turned and walked away and I never seen him again, that was over 10 years ago.  I have seen and experienced enough things in my life to know that there are things in this world that we cannot readily quantify but do appear to be good and evil.  Based on my experiences, I can say that phenomena that appears to be evil does fear the name of Jesus and yes, I have experienced being in the presents of something intensely powerful and filled with love and kindness.  And I do agree that if your faith in the ALMIGHTY is strong, there is no room for evil but that don't mean we won't be tested and tempted, that's part of life.  This is just my opinion here but thought I would share it here.
Roger
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mgscherer
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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2010, 03:49:23 PM »

Roger,
Thanks for your input!! I totaly agree with you. I do feel and have seen evil work in the very inocent of kids. Is it the devil taking over? I would like to think so, just by the actions and physical nature of the youth I have witnessed. Base on each individuals religous beleifs, Evil and good works in differnt ways. I have read many different articles on this subject and all have the same conclusion that evil does exists in some sort of way.
I believe that kids are a working force evil. Kids can be so inocent then one day there is a change that cant be explained.
Roger thanks again for your input love hearing other peoples view on this subject.
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mgscherer
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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2010, 06:11:31 PM »

I have a friend right now who is asking for help with her eleven year old daughter. We have been in contact with her before as a group and the mother had asked for us to lie to the daughter that ghost are not real. I still keep in contact with the family and hear stories of the young girl. The mother has told me at times the girls mood would change from happy to very violent anger. The young girl is not on any medications for bipolar or any mood alternate issues. This girl shows signs of something scaring her and no one will listen to her. Anybody have any ideas or suggestions?
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JimS
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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2010, 06:42:38 PM »


Would they be willing to talk to Dale and Linda?

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mgscherer
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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2010, 07:45:53 PM »

I doubt they would because the mother doesn not want to believe in the paranormal. They recognize they have paranormal problems, but there pride of neighbors and friends keep the mother from wanting us to come as a group or anyone else. What do I sugget other wise?
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JimS
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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2010, 07:57:53 PM »


I think Dale and Linda can look at the situation from angles other than the paranormal, which is one reason I suggested them. You might want to run it by them. I'm afraid there's not much that can be done if they won't talk to anyone. The best option I can think of right now is some kind of secular counseling, perhaps a good psychologist or even a psychiatrist.

-Jim
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Dale
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2011, 06:52:01 PM »

I don't believe I've seen this blog before. or if I had I must not have felt qualified to comment. Thank you for mentioning my name in this string.

The original post posed the questions, "are they (exorcisms) real?" "Is demonic possession possible?" and the debate about a psychological struggle for attention by someone in need. Good questions, all. We can't possibly talk about exorcism of demons without talking about religion. The two are intertwined and connected. Are they real? Of course they are. The word and ritual of exorcism wouldn't still be in our vocabulary if people didn't have a belief system in place. Why waste time creating a defense against something that doesn't exist? Why write a ritual for exorcism if you never intend on using it?

Now then, does the rite of exorcism happen like in the movies? That's where the real issues come into play. Would an exorcism ever be needed if no one knew anything about demonic possession? If we stopped talking about demons, would exorcism and the variation of the topics continue to exist? Or would they be forgotten to history, like so many, many other things? And if they are forgotten and fall into dis-use, does that mean they never existed at all?

Do demons exist because they are real, or because we believe they are real? Would someone who has been scared of the dark their whole life going to stop being scared of the dark because someone told her to? "We don't do exorcisms because there is no such thing as demonic possession." Would you believe it if it was stated by the Pope or some religious leader of renown? Even if we believed the statement, would we really believe in our hearts?

I wonder if we have to have demons who can interact with humans, because if we didn't have a spiritual enemy how would we know if we were spiritual "better" than anyone else? How do we know what is 'good' without experiencing something 'evil?' Without demons, there is no need for certain religious organizations to even exist. I'm not pointing fingers or naming names, but the whole reason certain religions exist is to wage spiritual combat against something called The Devil/Satan/etc. And don't forget his minions, the demonic realm.

There is no doubt that exorcisms are real. However, they just might not do what we think they do. Or should do. There is an absolutely incredible amount of psychological activities flying around the room when an activity like this is conducted. All those egos, fears, expectations, understandings (and misunderstandings) about what is going on. And, in addition, you have the physical reality of the stresses, bodily strains and who knows, maybe even the physical manifestation of a demon. There's a lot riding on the little litany we call an exorcism. What happens if we fail to heal the 'client?' That opens up a whole new can of whup-ass.

Because of all this, the belief that a possession is an unwanted experience by someone crying for help is not something easily answered. There would need to be an incredible amount of investigation for a credible exorcism to happen. As for the type you see on television (Mexico, India and Alabama are full of possessed people and those willing to exorcise the demon out), those folks are pretty common. They are actually exorcisms, in that they make claim of removing unwanted entities from people who make the claim of possession. They are certainly not like the exorcism spoken of by Thomas Allen and the 1949 "Robbie Mannheim" case. (That's the one Blatty wrote about in The Exorcist. Great flick)

OK, I've taken up enough space. Time to post.
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Dale
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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2011, 06:43:37 PM »

Nuts, I didn't get any responses to my comments. Let me try again.

Are exorcisms real? They are done, yes. But, are they necessary? In other words, are demons real, and can they possess (literally take over) a person? First, let's clear the air a bit. There are religions that not only accept spirit possession, they encourage it. Voudon (Voodoo), and its variations are all about spirit possession. They have ceremonies that deliberately bring about spirit possession. Most practitioners would call themselves Christian, too. Catholic, with just a touch of African paganism. Then there are the Spiritualists, who refer to themselves as very much Christian, and enjoy allowing themselves to become possessed by spirits for the purpose of communication. How about shamans? They practice states of consciousness that allow for possession and communication by spirits. It's pretty common, in fact.

So, how about the nasty demons? Those creatures spoken of in the Medieval grimoires, or hinted at in the Old Testament? In another post Robin laid out a list of names for the hierarchy of the demonic legions. Yes, they all have names. All one million plus. So, apparently someone believes they are real to take the time to give them names and personalities. Most of those demons come to us from the legendary Key of Solomon the King. You'll recall him as being the guy who used demon labor to build the Temple of the Holies to house the Arc of the Covenant. (It's a great story)

But these creatures had no ability to physically take over a human. Not by a long shot. And they don't today, either. So who exactly is it that is possessing all of our brothers and sisters? Most accounts from the Dark Ages are so much nonsense by today's standards that it isn't even worth mentioning. Confessions and statements obtained under torture don't really count for anything. So, let's look at possession in the 19th-20th centuries. If we remove the fundamentalist take on spirit possession, and only look at the (American) Catholic/Protestant Christian church, we find two cases. Two cases. One in 1929 and one in 1949. And both of those are highly dubious at best if looked at with a certain amount of skepticism.

So, are they demons or a psychological imbalance? My first question is always: "What constitutes a possession?" What proof does a person need to think a demon (or anything else, for that matter) is possessing him/her? Modern day parapsychology has done their work in establishing relationships between people and naturally-occurring phenomena, like psychokenisis, remote viewing and reincarnation. There's not a lot of reason to think that the earth is a battleground for human souls by angels and demons any more, unless a person chooses to believe the battle still exists. I can understand a person who believes this if they have never been exposed to reality outside a controlled lifestyle and education. But what about the rest of us?

Most of us believe the earth is not flat. Most of us believe we are not the center of the Universe. Most of us don't think our species was genetically altered by aliens at some time in our history. Most of us don't believe there are giants who live under the earth and make it shake on occasion (especially in California), or a pantheon of gods that live in the sky throwing around lightning bolts. Most of us don't have a clue about what happens after we die. There is only spotty evidence for the existence of a soul aside from personal testimonials and what we, ourselves, constitute to be evidence of life beyond living. So, why exactly should there be a belief system for demons, angels, fairies, elementals, vampires, djinn, or any of the extremely long list of legendary creatures of the night?

In my opinion, even ghosts are suspect. And I've had personal encounters with them. One of the worst things we can ever do to ourselves is think that we may be wrong about something. "What if I didn't see what I thought I saw?" "What if I just imagined what I heard?" What if...what if...what if.

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Roger
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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2011, 09:07:26 PM »

Ok Dale, you got me to bite on this one LOL...if your focus on your last post is to spark a response that's cool.  While I agree that we should view everything around us with a bit of a skeptic eye we must be careful not to become either too skeptical nor too blindly believing.  It seems that each age takes pride in what it thinks it knows and then in another age it seems to be proven wrong.  Let's face it, we live in a strange universe full of many phenomena and unanswered questions and there is no way we will ever have all the answers.  Like you, I have seen and experienced things that we term paranormal, what is it?  Who really knows the answer on that one.  Are demons real?  What I see is a world that has both good and evil in it, a battle ground if you will.  In the end though, it really is up to each of us to decide for ourselves what is the origin of these forces.
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